An increase in manufacturing costs that is passed on to the consumer does not automatically signify inflation since the purchasing power of the money has remained the same.

Because being competitive means that, after taking all of the costs into account, Nullsec manuacturers should be able to make the same Economic profit by selling its wares (or at least some subset of wares) in Jita (because you can't "fix" Jita without some really silly changes) as HS manufacturers.

The cost of delivering your goods to market is definitely a cost that any firm has to take into account. That's why we're talking about Jita. Not because we want to get rid of Jita.

Move T2 production to .7 space and lower.

Reduce the lines in .7 space so that it ensures competition in stations for slots, spreads producers out, and encourage more use of PoS's for manufacturing.

EVE Makes absolutely no attempt at realism.

the idea that High risk activities come with inherently high rewards (in RL, high risk activities have higher rewards because fewer people do them), and so on.

The fact is, CCP has said that they want Nullsec industry to be lucrative. "Oh, I can save a little bit on transport costs" is not "Lucrative."

Also, how do you propose making Nullsec production of T1 items cheaper than HS's free production of T1 items? At the moment, Nullsec is pretty much limited to making T1 Battleships cheaper than importing them through the magic of mineral compression, but that's not quite what the goal is, is it?

If you're going to bring RL into this then yes, there are many dangerous parts of the world where fortunes can be made but with a greater risk.

Take a look at Gold mining, there's big money to be made in South America and Africa because of the lack of any environmental or health and safety regulations or formal taxes, so gold can be ripped out of the ground with a bigger profit than doing it in the US, however this comes with the risk of catching some horrible disease, being killed by bandits, kidnapped by any one of a dozen different terrorist groups, being shut down by corrupt government/militia forces for not paying the correct bribes or simply being run off your claim by a neigbouring miner, with no recourse to any sort of law.

Risk v Reward

Industry needs to be phased out of NPC stations and into POSs ... if it makes people happer, allow small refineries in POSs in 0.5 systems. Make it a conflict driver! ;)

Their are loads of free office space in 0.5 systems, just not in the ones close to trade hubs, to get closer you need to use a 0.6 or 0.7 system and they really have a lot of space available, so the should just allow refineries where ever you can anchor a POS.

Player owned should always be better than NPC free.

No, highsec should be like mount olympus, where the gods (CONCORD) preside over their heavenly realm.

All the nullsec dogs can scratch in the dirt like the violent animals they are.

hold on back up...what mechanics have worked well for 10 years?

Yet CCP have never balked at removing NPC crutches once the player economy proved it was capable of handling the load; NPC buy orders for minerals, NPC goods, etc. Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?

Buff those mining barges even more please.

Because players aren't capable of moving to POSes. For one, it's troublesome when your POS corp gets wardecced, unlike the miners and PI and industry characters.

Wardecs need a massive nerf before forcing players to use things like POSes will be anywhere resembling "acceptable" (it won't actually be acceptable of course, expect shooting of jita structures) to the highsecers.


Though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a massive nerf to wardecs just on the principle of it.

"If we change things, then things will change! That would be terrible!"

Would you suggest that a "release early, release often" approach would work?

For example, start off releasing player-run refineries that work as activity lines and can refine mixtures of ore, as well as reprocessing hardware. Then modify NPC stations to work the same, capable of supporting current levels of use. Then start taking away the NPC station refineries? This could happen over the course of 12 months, in parallel with the removal of other activity slots such as research, invention, manufacturing lines.

It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to set up a POS and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.

When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion.

Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]
• Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
• Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance

Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid.

So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay.

As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec.

Regarding your comment about pissing in the wind, I consider myself a casual player these days, I make about 2bil a week, playing about 10h/week. I can't even think about competing with any serious builder or trader as we've all got the same base of operations. (NPC Stations)

The voice of privilege speaks.

And frankly I have heard a lot about why I should have to be stuck at the level of a casual industrialist but nothing as to why Industrialists should be stuck on the level of the lazy risk adverse player. That comment was not such directed at you but all I keep hearing is why I should not be able to earn more than someone with less industry SP and little or no risk.

Also without the POS you would make slightly less profit, so all I can see is greed. You want for there to be no advantage to capital out lay and risk.

As the small competitor for Toyota that owns no manufacturing facilities is who? (others may make nice cars but on most items of a similar type, they could not compete)

If I am building an item like a JF I am risking the moon goo market does not collapse in the time I am building it, do I not deserve more profit than someone building a rifter?

No I went on reality, unless you can name me a car company that does not own (or use government facilities) and competes directly with Toyota.

So I will take that is tony in his back shed can not compete with Toyota within the same market.

And yes if he made rifters and I made jump freighters than yes the amount of my profit would be greater but back on the original point I was saying that if I was using my own manufacturing and he was renting it and we were both building rifters, does it not make sense that I should profit more per unit of rifter?

You could try to implement this into Eve by allowing each character one cheaper/more efficient manufacturing slot even in Empire. But if you want to expand beyond that, you need to pay more, move out of congested highsec or set up a POS.

Seriously? A char with almost 3 years invested into indy / trade having problems doing a couple of bil a week while playing casually? Like I said before, I play about 10h a week. If that is not casual, then the mistake was mine. If casual is playing 3h a week, then I'd say the rewards will adjust accordingly to, say, 500mil a week. FFS, even with PI alone you can pretty much do this amount if you know what you're doing! :|

I'm pretty sure there's guys who make more isk than me, in far less time, probably with far less skills and far less effort and I don't ***** about it being unfair nor do I expect a total noob to be able to compete with me, through normal mechanics, at the same activity, when I invested a couple of years into support skills.

I'm supposed to be more efficient than he is, period.

sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?

Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

In a lot of cases moving manufacturing to other countries costs millions and is a longer term project as they make their money back by a savings in wages, health care plans, superannuation, sick leave and holiday pay and wage taxes.

...have you been away for the last 3 years or something? Incarna, the Jita monument/protest, the massive flood of Spaceship related improvements in the last few years?

That was what I could not understand, If the machines are built in Europe and sold to China doesn't that mean the costs the companies are saving are in relation to wages not the cost of the equipment. Kind of exactly what I said?

As I have yet to see any argument as to how renting equipment is cheaper than owing your own in relation to running costs. As the initial capital expenditure is obviously higher if you buy the manufacturing equipment.

So you are selling lower quality equipment at a cheaper price but either way around they still own the equipment and are not renting it.